Hi Sagger. Hi Walt.

So let's leave it alone, 'cause we can't see eye to eye.
There ain't no good guys, there ain't no bad guys.
There's only you and me and we just disagree.
Ooo - ooo - ooohoo oh - oh - o-whoa

Your friends for life,

Ted

Time for a beer/vodka summit.

in.

Yeah, us crazy Libertarians will be the downfall of this country what with our wild notions of self sufficiency and less government intervention..... I mean it's absolutely selfish of me to be resentful of the fact that 40% of my paycheck is currently confiscated by the state and federal government. What's 10 or 15% more... I mean, in time I sure I won't even notice its missing.

Oh, by the way, make sure you don't shop at Whole Foods!

The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare

what state income tax do you pay?
and one of the things you proposed just shifts responsibility from the federal level to the state level. Yeh, that smacks of rugged individualism, that's for sure.
We ignorant unwashed just need more schoolin' on libertarianism I guess. Or read some Ayn Rand. Whichever.

Yeah, it would be awful to have state government supercede federal government.

but you still pay state income tax? Or am I missing something?

Yeah, you're missing something. Property taxes, vehicle taxes, etc are paid to the state. I never said anything about state income tax.

It sure as shit would be if you live in texas.

Yeah, the CEO of Wholefoods is just about the only person speaking out against Obama's health plan that practices what he preaches. Dude actually has the same coverage that he gives to his employees. Can't say that for the rest of the naysayers.

But again, show me an actual proposal that's being brought before congress. Show me a conservative healthcare plan that has been brought to the public in someone's platform and actually followed through with. Conservatives only opinions on healthcare are dissenting views. Their plans (even the good ones like the wellness plans) are only discussed as alternatives in order to dissuade people from believing in a more liberal plan. And what happens about it when all the conservatives have all the power in all the branches of government for a decade? Absofuckinglutely nothing. Show me a conservative who is actually writing a fucking bill. Until then these "ideas" are about as relevant as Norm's trade proposals. In theory they might work. But everyone knows they're never going to happen.

yeh I get it. Libertarians hate government, taxes, etc. Of course, no idea how schools would get funded, but whatever.

*giggle*

Way to bring it back to sports.

Actually, with regard to education, the Libertarian stance is as follows:

Education, like any other service, is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Schools should be managed locally to achieve greater accountability and parental involvement. Recognizing that the education of children is inextricably linked to moral values, we would return authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. In particular, parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education.

This would get the Federal Government out of the local education systems. Therefore, schools would actually be competing for students and not just ensuring that asses are in the seats so they could pick up their federal credit. Local taxes for local schools....

The bottom line here Walt, is my view of the Federal Government's role in our lives as opposed to yours and Sagger's differs. Be it a Republican administration or Democratic, I feel that the parties are only concerned with staying in power and have long ago abandoned the notion that they are in place to truly represent their constituents. I feel that most federal programs are run poorly, are ineffective in their purpose and only end up costing all of us more in taxes.

I was a gadfly when Bush was in office regarding privacy issues and the erosion of our personal rights, and I'll continue to oppose continued growth of Federal government.

Doesn't mean I don't still love you, and, Hell, Sagger's even grown on me the last couple of years. I do so enjoy the debate, but it's like Terd mentioned earlier: We just disagree....

no offense but pipe dreams

This part I agree with. It was rather convenient when Congress imposed term limits on the President and left themselves out of the mix. Term limits for Congress are long overdue in my opinion. IMO you should get a limit of 12 years in D.C., no matter what position you hold (still 2 terms on the Pres, though.) So either 2 terms in the Senate, 6 terms in the House, or 1 in the Senate and 1 term of president, etc. But after 12 years, GONE. Oh, and no one that serves in congress should be eligible for the Supreme Court. Oh, and fuck all that "salary for life" bullshit, make it a percentage based on amount of time served.

Maybe so, but does that mean he shouldn't believe it?

Can we all just agree that it's good to be white and privileged?

Of course he can, if it's also perfectly acceptable to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny as a grown man.

we won the motherfucking race/class lotto.

baby fucking arm

plundering skills > basketball skills

I'll buy that... I actually kinda agree with the only concerned about getting into and staying in office bit. However I genuinely believe that the key democrats in charge, like Obama and Barney frank, actually have a stake in the welfare of the general public that drives that concern... as opposed to the lust for personal gain and power that drives many of the conservatives.

breaking skulls > break dancing

analytical > anaconda

gay

my anaconda don't want none

unless you got BUNS, HON!!!

I'd rather be poor and black if it meant not being hung like a vienna sausage.

Any comment I made about race was made in asshole-jest. I don't think that race has much if anything to do with this.

although I absolutely believe the birther types are racist.

I think it's a factor. It's mostly conservative vs liberal, but race is definitely a player here. I don't think you'd see the bullshit going on at these meetings if we had elected a white man from arizona.

I think there's honest disagreement, I think there are those on the right who are bound and determined to piss on the process without much of a plan of their own , but I don't see race in this instance as big of a deal.

Again, however, the birther thing exposed the right to some serious racism charges.

You're both right. The right was gonna piss on this either way. There are some legitimate policy arguments. But the way in which they've gone about making those arguments... the extreme vitriol, the characterizations, the questioning of personal legitimacy... are all on a level reserved for the first negro.

Guys, I'll be the first to agree that there are some Bubbas out there who have reverted to a Boss Hogg mentality with regard to Obama... But, there is also a legitimate opposing side who see Obama's "Change" as being damaging to the country long-term, outside the bounds of the constitution and raising further suspicion by his attempt to rush his healtcare reform through congress without proper review and examination.

I think the news reports are somewhat skewed simply because it's "good television" to show the extremist rabble-rouser shouting at the nice politician, but I also think that there are more legitimate citizens attending these meetings with legitimate questions and concerns.

Again, the frustration lies in the fact that, when a legitimate question is asked, the politician can't fully answer and tap dances. My opinion; This is because the said politician doesn't know the answer becuase he/she is too unfamiliar with the complexity of the bill... Which leads us back into the argument of Why is this being rushed?

All I know is, the right (and by extension, the libertarians) had plenty of time to try something to make things better.
They didn't.
While they have every right to express themselves, their credibility on the issue is kinda thin since they didn't exactly do much until the evil liberals proposed some ideas.

The right helped a little. They added the Death Panel to the bill. That counts for something, right?

Yeh, but what about the talking points of the right aside from the townhall debacles? You've got a slew of republican congresspersons that were a party to the certification of Obama as president refusing to admit that they know that he is actually an American. Nobody even hinting at opposing Limbaugh's outrageous comments. You've got the entire fox news channel calling him a racist, a socialist, unamerican, promoting the forged kenyan birth certificates. The fucking bring a gun to obama's speech bit. And go back to the election... all the bullshit at Palin's speeches. At some point the fact that no one on the right at all will condemn these things means they condone them. This is a widespread problem, not limited to some "bubbas." This is the right wing smear machine in action. And there has been nothing like this ever in the history of this country. It's fucking sick and scary, man.

this.

I could guess at what someone like Cods would reply, which would be "Yeh, but y'all did it to Bush!"
it's completely false, and there's no true analog here, but that's what his dumb ass would say.

[quote="Sagger Pance"}
Yeh, but what about the talking points of the right aside from the townhall debacles? You've got a slew of republican congresspersons that were a party to the certification of Obama as president refusing to admit that they know that he is actually an American. Nobody even hinting at opposing Limbaugh's outrageous comments. You've got the entire fox news channel calling him a racist, a socialist, unamerican, promoting the forged kenyan birth certificates. The fucking bring a gun to obama's speech bit. And go back to the election... all the bullshit at Palin's speeches. At some point the fact that no one on the right at all will condemn these things means they condone them. This is a widespread problem, not limited to some "bubbas." This is the right wing smear machine in action. And there has been nothing like this ever in the history of this country. It's fucking sick and scary, man.[/quote]

Come on Sagger. We're talking about the same issues as when Bush was in office. The minority party smokescreens and gadflies trying to take attention away from the main issues)

Obama is a Kenyan parallels Bush was AWOL from his National Guard unit. (Remember this was pursued so recklessly by the left that it ended Dan Rather's career.

Nobody opposing Limbaugh..... Keith Olberman, Rachel Maddows and CNN run and have ran equally unchecked.

Palin speeches are on par with Boxer or Waxman speeches in there simplistic outrageousness.

I don't defend this. It's simply illustrates the point I made earlier that Dems and Reps are more interested in power than improving our system.

That's why I refuse to participate with either side and "waste" my vote every election with the Libertarian ticket....

You've got to be kidding me.
A. There's a difference between saying Bush was a fuckup while he was in the national guard and saying our current president is not even an American. Especially when it's being egged on by the same congress people that already fucking certified him as an American. Rather got screwed by not doing his fact checking. But these are ACTUAL republican officials saying this shit when they know better.

B. Name me one thing that Rachel Maddow has said that is incorrect, indecent or needs to be retracted. Hell or olberman for that matter.

C. I wasn't talking about Palin's speeches. I was talking about the racial and incendiary comments espoused by audience members that were never opposed. Calling obama a traitor, a muslim, a terrorist, and calling for his death.

Please tell me you don't actually believe this kinda shit spreads evenly across party lines. Please. Give me examples. And don't even bring bush into this. We had eight years of evidence to work with when it came to Bush. And every single one of the "crazy liberal conspiracy theories" are coming out as actually being true.

I mean no personal indictment with this: But that i don't go with either side thing is bullshit. It's a copout. Pretending that both sides are equally culpable for the fractured state of American politics is a fucking joke. A fucking joke. You're way too smart to buy into that shit.